Muscle Cars!

Carps wrote:Is there such a thing as a British Muscle Car?....

Depends how you define Muscle Car?
Jenson Interceptor?
Aston Martin V8 Vantage?
Sunbeam Tiger?

I can't think of anything comparable to a GTO or a Charger though.

The choice of Pom cars in 1/25 is limited so it looks like me might all be building Tamiya minis

zenrat wrote:Depends how you define Muscle Car?

I would say there are three mandatories:

1. big cubic inch V8 engine
2. relatively light weight body
3. cheap, mass produced vehicle

Hey guys, I thought the Brits used American cars too? And what about Revell's Anglia and Austin drag cars, or a Jaguar V8, or????

How about a Vauxhall Monaro?

Bryce wrote:

zenrat wrote:Depends how you define Muscle Car?

I would say there are three mandatories:

1. big cubic inch V8 engine
2. relatively light weight body
3. cheap, mass produced vehicle

Call me a rivet counter, but whilst Muscle cars may have been based on cheap mass produced vehicles the really desireable and genuinely muscular ones were not built in big numbers.

My favourite, the '70 Plymouth hemi Roadrunner. Only 159 Hemi Rodrunners were built. Of that lot only 36 were Super Bees and less than a handfull of each were equipped with manual transmissions which is why today an original manual '70 Roadrunner will bring six figures at auction. The same year saw only 6 Hemi equipped Barracuda convertibles and that's why the last one of those cars that changed hands carried a seven figure price tag.

My second favourite Muscle car, the '71 Hemi Road Runner...... Only 55 built.

The story is similar for the 440 six pack powered cars with the rarest being the '71 Plymouth GTX with less than 25 built.

Here's an interesting story about a car many consider the most famous Hemi 'Cuda convertible, it was even made as a model kit by Revell.
It's the only 'Curious Yellow' '71 Hemi 'Cuda Convert built. Sold new in Millwaukee Wisconsin it had white upholstery and a tourqueflite auto. It changed hands a few times before being advertised in Hemings by then owner Bill Stickman (true!) late in 1985. The tired old Mopar was purchased by a Steven Segal who dragged it home on a trailer and spent the next few years restoring it. In 1987 well known car collector Ottis Chandler was assembling what he called the greatest collection of Muscle cars on earth and he paid $54,000 for the car. The Muscle car guys went nuts saying that by asking so much Segal would send muscle car prices crazy. Well, after eight years in Chandlers collection it was sold again for a paltry $250,000. The new owner Kevin Suydam sold the car in 2001 for $750,000 and then promptly paid $1,000,000 for one of only two four speed '71 Hemi 'Cudas built. The second of those cars changed hands at an auction in January last year, for $2,420,000.

But back to the yellow car. Actor Don Johnston saw the car in a magazine and hand a bunch of replicas made for his latest TV series (this is the car that Revell based the model kit off) Nash Bridges.

What's the car worth today? The experts recon at least a million more than last time it changed hands.

This is why I'll never have my 426, 4 speed, '70 Road Runner coupe with Buckets and console. It's worth more than 3 million already and explains why the crowd of grown men at the Orange county cruise I attended last year all got hot and sweaty and almost wet their collective pants when the car I just described cruised into the parking lot.

Sure, I could afford a 340 & auto Powered '70 Road Runner, but it aint a Real Muscle car.

tezza43 wrote:Hey guys, I thought the Brits used American cars too? And what about Revell's Anglia and Austin drag cars, or a Jaguar V8, or????

All the cars pictured have American muscles and the Jag V8? It's a Ford by any other name!

Carps wrote:Call me a rivet counter

OK - you're a rivet counter

But I think you are missing a key part of the muscle car story here Carps. The Plymouth Roadrunner is a great example. It was specifically designed as a stripped back, cheap mass produced version of the Belvedere, at a time when muscle cars were getting away from their ‘hot rod’ roots and getting a bit flabby on the performance side and too expensive for the kids.

In 1970 they made heaps of them:
2D Pillared Coupe: 15,716
2D Hardtop Coupe: 24,944
Convertible: 824

The HEMI was an option on any of these cars, as it was across the entire Mopar range, so anyone could have ordered one. The fact that most people didn't simply alludes to the fact that it was not popular at that time, albeit mainly because it was cost prohibitive and impractical for the street. It's one of the great ironies that cars that were unpopular at the time, and thus built in small numbers, actually become more collectible and enjoy a greater increase in value over time.

Even the Dodge Daytona and Plymouth Superbird, which were specifically built in very low numbers to homologate their aerodynamics package for NASCAR racing, were hard to shift from the dealer showrooms at the time, mainly because of unorthodox looks and serious impracticalities as form took over from function. The rear wings on those things are only tall so the boot could be opened!!

Carps wrote: Of that lot only 36 were Super Bees

Call me a rivet counter, but Super Bees were a stripped back, low cost version of the Coronet made by Dodge, not Plymouth.

Bryce wrote:

zenrat wrote:Depends how you define Muscle Car?

I would say there are three mandatories:

1. big cubic inch V8 engine
2. relatively light weight body
3. cheap, mass produced vehicle

Sorry, I forgot the fourth mandatory:
4. Atrocious brakes, handling and steering

Bryce wrote:

Carps wrote:Call me a rivet counter

OK - you're a rivet counter

Bryce wrote:But I think you are missing a key part of the muscle car story here Carps.

That's coz there's not enuff room to write it all. Oh and I type so slow it'd take me more than all night.

Bryce wrote:]In 1970 they made heaps of them:
2D Pillared Coupe: 15,716
2D Hardtop Coupe: 24,944
Convertible: 824

Little engines generally classified them as Pony Cars, that's why I said I could have one of these less desirable 'pony cars', but the 'muscle car' I desire will sadly elude me. Unless I win the lottery. Oh, I have to have a ticket? Bugger!

The HEMI was an option on any of these cars, as it was across the entire Mopar range, so anyone could have ordered one.

I'm pretty sure the 426 'Street Hemis' unlike the original Hemis of the 1950's were offered only in select models.

Bryce wrote:

Carps wrote: Of that lot only 36 were Super Bees

Call me a rivet counter, but Super Bees were a stripped back, low cost version of the Coronet made by Dodge, not Plymouth.

You are right, somehow it lost something in the translation. The point being that there were even fewer of the less expensive variants. Same applies for Hemi Darts etc. Most of those being equipped with the 'Race' Hemi and not destined for road use.

To me and many like me, muscle cars had the big engine options, pony cars were the mild small engined variants.

Mustang 302 = Pony car
Mustang 429CJ = Muscle Car
Camaro SS350 = Pony Car
Camaro SS427 = Muscle car
'Cuda 360 = Pony Car
'Cuda 440 6pack = Muscle car (likewise 426 Hemi)

tezza43 wrote: Sometimes it's good to be taken out of your comfort zone and be handed a challenge that by its very nature will add to your collective creative skill and talent.

I learned that during my 1/1 MG phase.

Explains why those old English sporties no longer reside in my shed. Comfort is not a word one would use in the same sentence as MG T series.

And the challenges it posed became just too much, even for me.

Carps wrote:Hey it's happening again, 142 views so far but only 15 votes.

C'mon guys n gals out there in model building land we need you all to vote, otherwise we'll all be building , E.... E.......En....... Eng.......English cars!

That is because everyone is enjoying another Carps/Bryce oration, well i am anyway , makes it worth while turning on the pc.
I voted British because it would be different to most community builds i see on line. I just won`t be buying another Revell Jag, the XK SS i`m half way through is doing my head in, what a piece of s***.
Might be an excuse to build one of my many F1 kits as most of them are built in England, if i can get away with it .
I don`t think even i could get away with one of the many 1/72 WWII British trucks i have .

Bryce wrote:

Carps wrote: Little engines generally classified them as Pony Cars, that's why I said I could have one of these less desirable 'pony cars', but the 'muscle car' I desire will sadly elude me.

Nope – a Pony Car was a compact. It started with the Mustang in ‘64/65. GM retaliated in ’67 with the Camaro/Firebird and Mopar finally got in on the act in ’70 with the Challenger/Cuda. These cars in small block form (under 5 litres) became synonomous with Trans Am road racing, culminating in the iconic Z28, Boss 302 and T/A cars that are revered worldwide.

Yup and by your definition, all Pony Cars.

If you’ve ever seen one in the flesh, you’ll know that a Roadrunner is anything but compact. A small block B-body Mopar would be more like a draught horse than a Pony Car!

Haven't seen one in the flesh but have seen more than a few in the metal. And yes they are based on the larger B body as were most of MOPARS bread and butter family cars of the time. And because they were so much bigger and heavier, the small engined versions didn't go near delivering the sort of performsance they did when installed in the smaller, lighter Pony Cars.

Personally I wouldn’t classify a 383 or 440 as a little engine either – and plenty of these made their way into Roadrunners. Granted the HEMI made more power and was no doubt quicker in a straight line – but I reckon the 383/440 would have been easier to live with!

You'll note I included the 440 as being a key element of the 'Muscle Car' qualification, so I guess we agree on that point. Fact is, a 440 Rodrunner could more than match a Street Hemi on the drag strip in stock form. Infortunately, the Hemi when modified would deliver awsome performance. Mind you, a modded 440 is no slouch either. The 383 on the other hand was a standard low performance engine used in taxis, mom & pop mobiles and Family Trucksters. Definitely not Muscle car equipment when you consider the other options.

Here’s the figures for 1970:
383 V8 335 bhp @ 5200 rpm, 425 lb-ft @ 3400 rpm.

I rest my case!
We're making that sort of power with the Toyota Aurion V6!

Performance:
383/335: 0-60 in 7.1 sec, 1/4 mile in 15.0 sec @ 96 mph.

That Aurion V6 I mentioned...... it'll lick that easily, whichy I guess proves it can't possibly be a muscle car if it can be beaten by a volume selling Toyota!

426/425: 0-60 in 5.3 sec, 1/4 mile in 13.49 sec @ 105 mph

And the Aussie Tojo will pretty much match or maybe even beat that too!

Damn! I think the gloss is going off the Muscle car image.

But an Aurion aint no musclle car is it?
Come to think of it, the Hilux 4x4 pick-up I'm currently driving will run high 13s all day long but I'd never call it a muscle car.

Bryce wrote: The HEMI was an option on any of these cars, as it was across the entire Mopar range, so anyone could have ordered one.

Carps wrote: I'm pretty sure the 426 'Street Hemis' unlike the original Hemis of the 1950's were offered only in select models.

Not all Hemis were created equal and I'm still pretty sure the 'special' Race Hemi was only avaiable in specific combinations. Likewise, the letter series cars after '57 (I think) had 440s and could not be ordered with Hemis.

Here’s a list of the cars that actually got a HEMI in 1970 and their production numbers. But believe me, you could have had one in anything if you had the cash - Mopar were very flexible about options back then…

Plymouth Road Runner Hardtop 81
Plymouth Road Runner 81
Plymouth Road Runner Convertible 4
Plymouth Road Runner Superbird 136
Plymouth GTX Hardtop 77
Plymouth 'Cuda Hardtop 696
Plymouth 'Cuda Convertible 18
Dodge Coronet Super Bee Hardtop 34
Dodge Coronet Super Bee Coupe 8
Dodge Coronet R/T Hardtop 14
Dodge Coronet R/T Convertible 2
Dodge Charger R/T 124
Dodge Challenger R/T Hardtop 306
Dodge Challenger R/T Convertible 12
Dodge Challenger RT/SE Hardtop 64

Interesting that they are all the sporty compacts oor mid sized models, no four doors or family cars and I guess fitting a Hemi to a Plymouth Fury would not make it a muscle car, would it?

Yes I know there were many 'special builds' one of my good friends owns the only white on white on white Hemi powered 300 G (I think that's the right letter) Convertible. Thing is, even to the collectors, there's a difference between a 'listed option' and a 'special build' which is the only way you could get a Hemi installed in many of the bread and butter models.

Agreed. With the above mentioned caveat that pony cars are a compact with a small block V8. I’d consider a 396 Camaro or a 383 Dart to be just as much a muscle car as one with a 427 or 440/HEMI. Same with a 396 Chevelle or 383 Roadrunner. And I'd consider a B-body mopar with anything under a 383 to be just plain slow!

No argument from me there, although I'd still question the 383 Road Runner's qualification as a Muscle car

Thanks to http://www.mymopar.com and http://www.musclecarclub.com for info on production numbers.

You must teach me one day how to use the dubyuh, dubyuh, dubyuh for research.

stevegt738 wrote:

Carps wrote:Hey it's happening again, 142 views so far but only 15 votes.

C'mon guys n gals out there in model building land we need you all to vote, otherwise we'll all be building , E.... E.......En....... Eng.......English cars!

That is because everyone is enjoying another Carps/Bryce oration, well i am anyway , makes it worth while turning on the pc.

We live to entertain!

Just don't take it too seriously.

I voted British because it would be different to most community builds i see on line.

You rebel you!

I just won`t be buying another Revell Jag, the XK SS i`m half way through is doing my head in, what a piece of s***.

The 1/1 scale model had the same effect!

Might be an excuse to build one of my many F1 kits as most of them are built in England, if i can get away with it .

Hey, I can do that, I just happen to have a couple of F1 'models'.

I don`t think even i could get away with one of the many 1/72 WWII British trucks i have .

British is British, just don't call it a muscle car.

Bryce wrote:
Here’s the figures for 1970:
383 V8 335 bhp @ 5200 rpm, 425 lb-ft @ 3400 rpm.
426 Hemi V8 425 bhp @ 5000 rpm, 490 lb-ft @ 4000 rpm.
440 V8 375 bhp @ 4600 rpm, 480lb-ft @ 3200 rpm.
440+6 V8 390 bhp @ 4700 rpm, 490 lb-ft @ 3200 rpm.

WOW! I don't need to get a MOPAR, I think I have it covered with my new 'toy' which has a Hemi Ass whupping 430HP!
And whilst the 375 lb/ft of torque looks a little less on paper, the multiplication and accelleration is awesome thanks to the close ratio 8 speed gearbox (that's double the number in those old thangs). Oh and it is also the fastest shifting cog swapper around with the ability to change ratios in a neck snapping 0.1 second, with zero torque converter or clutch slip.

And for Tezza, it automatically blips the throttle on manual downshifts to match the rotating speed of both gears.

Performance:
383/335: 0-60 in 7.1 sec, 1/4 mile in 15.0 sec @ 96 mph.
426/425: 0-60 in 5.3 sec, 1/4 mile in 13.49 sec @ 105 mph

My new baby:
0-60m/h = 4.8 seconds (who needs torque when ya got 8 gears?)
1/4 mille = 13.2 seconds (that's straight out of the box and it'll do it all day long, adjusting tyre pressures and using softer compound than the standard rubber and it'll run in the 12s all day long, slicks and it'll run mid 12's)
Fuel consumption? Over 30mpg provided you don't push it too hard, wont get near that in a Hemi 'Cuda.

Based on the 'rules' it aint no muscle car, because it'll stop from 60m/h in less than half the time it takes to get there and it goes around corners like the whilte lines.

So Bryce, you still up for taking it around the block?

But y'know something, if I could, I'd trade it for a '70 Road Runner in a heartbeat, 440-6 or Hemi, auto or manual.

Carps wrote: my new 'Muscle Car' has a Hemi Ass whupping 430HP!

OHHHYEAHHHH I've been waiting since for ever to see this beastie in person!!

It's worth it, only a few more sleeps top go.

Yeah I havn't forgotten, you're in front of Bryce in the que.

Carps wrote:

Bryce wrote: Here’s the figures for 1970:
383 V8 335 bhp @ 5200 rpm, 425 lb-ft @ 3400 rpm.

I rest my case!
We're making that sort of power with the Toyota Aurion V6!

Performance:
383/335: 0-60 in 7.1 sec, 1/4 mile in 15.0 sec @ 96 mph.

That Aurion V6 I mentioned...... it'll lick that easily, whichy I guess proves it can't possibly be a muscle car if it can be beaten by a volume selling Toyota!

426/425: 0-60 in 5.3 sec, 1/4 mile in 13.49 sec @ 105 mph

And the Aussie Tojo will pretty much match or maybe even beat that too!

Yeah – Toyotas are so great that it only took them 40 years to catch up...

C’mon Carps – even a RAV 4 has 200 killer wasps these days – but give me the torque specs…

Carps wrote: Damn! I think the gloss is going off the Muscle car image.

But an Aurion aint no musclle car is it?
Come to think of it, the Hilux 4x4 pick-up I'm currently driving will run high 13s all day long but I'd never call it a muscle car.

I’m not gonna argue you with you there – that’s why I drive a Honda Euro to work and leave my Charger in the garage – it’s awful to drive on the street these days. It’s heavy, uncomfortable, noisy, smelly and everybody stares at you.

But when I drop the clutch and the LSD kicks in and we go sideways up the road in a haze of tyre smoke it puts a massive smile on my face. You won’t get that from a front wheel drive Orio…

Carps wrote: I guess fitting a Hemi to a Plymouth Fury would not make it a muscle car, would it?

No argument there either – a muscle car should have two doors and look good.

Carps wrote: I'd still question the 383 Road Runner's qualification as a Muscle car

You shouldn’t. From 1968 onwards Roadrunners in stock form (383) enjoyed an enviable reputation for cheap thrills. They took the market back to its roots by delivering maximum bang for buck.

Based on this discussion I have revised the mandatories for a muscle car to the following:

1. big cubic inch V8 engine (above 5 litres)
2. relatively light weight body
3. derived from a cheap, mass produced, mid-sized vehicle
4. Atrocious brakes, handling and steering
5. Preferably two doors and good looks

Thanks for your help Carps!

Bryce wrote:Yeah – Toyotas are so great that it only took them 40 years to catch up...

That's probably got something to do with the fact that they didn't get started until the others had been doing it already for more than forty years.

And just like a Dodge aint a Mercedes Benz and a Cadillac aint a Chevrolet, this aint a Toyota!

Considering this brand is less than 20 years young and it's oldest car is only in it's 4th generation, for a first attempt at this type of car, it aint too shabby for a bunch of so called amatuers.

Bryce wrote:Based on this discussion I have revised the mandatories for a muscle car to the following:

1. big cubic inch V8 engine (above 5 litres)
I'm in! And mine has 3 more camshafts and twice as many valves as the old dungers.

2. relatively light weight body
Very lightweight and stiff body, so I'm still in!

3. derived from a cheap, mass produced, mid-sized vehicle
Damn! It is made in resonable volume but it's no cheapass shopping trolley.

4. Atrocious brakes, handling and steering
OK I guess I'm out!

5. Preferably two doors and good looks
Hmm, got the looks deal covered, but two too many doors.
So Bryce, I guess that means you no longer want to take it for a pedal?

Carps wrote: So Bryce, you still up for taking it around the block? />

Bloody oath!

Bryce wrote:From 1968 onwards Roadrunners in stock form (383) enjoyed an enviable reputation for cheap thrills. They took the market back to its roots by delivering maximum bang for buck.

I knew a gal like that once!

Just thinking about this on the way home and it occurred to me that none of the 'true' muscle cars used a standard engine. So I need to revise this again:

1. Big cubic inch V8 engine (above 5 litres)
2. Factory engine modifications for increased performance
3. Relatively light weight body
4. Derived from a cheap, mass produced, compact or mid-sized vehicle
5. Atrocious brakes, handling and steering
6. Preferably two doors and good looks
7. A back seat (just to rule out any cheap sports cars)

FYI - the 383 that came standard in the Roadrunner used the heads, manifold, camshaft, valve springs, and crankcase windage tray from the race ready 440 Magnum. So it was no taxi motor Carps!

I'm curious Carps - why is the 70 model your favourite? I reckon the 68/69 look heaps better. I particularly like this one, and have a half-started model of it going. Just having a lot of trouble finding the right colour: NB - it has a HEMI!

i have to dissagree with u on no1 i do believe that the e49 Valiant Charger is a true muscle car ..... but it dont have a V8 its got a 265 Hemi 6

Bryce wrote:Just thinking about this on the way home and it occurred to me that none of the 'true' muscle cars used a standard engine. So I need to revise this again:

1. Big cubic inch V8 engine (above 5 litres)
2. Factory engine modifications for increased performance
3. Relatively light weight body
4. Derived from a cheap, mass produced, compact or mid-sized vehicle
5. Atrocious brakes, handling and steering
6. Preferably two doors and good looks
7. A back seat (just to rule out any cheap sports cars)

FYI - the 383 that came standard in the Roadrunner used the heads, manifold, camshaft, valve springs, and crankcase windage tray from the race ready 440 Magnum. So it was no taxi motor Carps!

I'm curious Carps - why is the 70 model your favourite? I reckon the 68/69 look heaps better. I particularly like this one, and have a half-started model of it going. Just having a lot of trouble finding the right colour: NB - it has a HEMI!

Bryce wrote:I'm curious Carps - why is the 70 model your favourite?

It's a much cleaner design with a more aggressive attitude.

I reckon the 68/69 look heaps better.
I particularly like the yellow one pictured above and have a half-started model of it going. Just having a lot of trouble finding the right colour: NB - it has a HEMI!

So does this one! AND it has an Air Grabber!

It also has cleaner rear styling and those sexy quarter panel scoops.

Did I mention this is an all matching numbers 100% original car?

Complete and perfect, right down to the rare as rocking horse poop 'Beep Beep' Horn.

AND, to make it even more desireable it's got three pedals and a pistol grip knob.

And the ultra desireable 'Tick Tock Tach!'

This is but one of the many '70 Road Runners and GTXs I've photographed over the years and even though it doesn't have the bucket seat option, it's the one I'd have in a heartbeat if I had a lazy million or so laying around doing nothing.

My next favourite is the 71 model, whilst it'ds a completely new car, the styling remained very aggressive and clearly evolved from the '70 models.

Re the colour for your '68, I think I may have it at home, I'll let you know on Saturday if I do.

Bryce wrote:Just thinking about this on the way home and it occurred to me that none of the 'true' muscle cars used a standard engine. So I need to revise this again:

1. Big cubic inch V8 engine (above 5 litres)
2. Factory engine modifications for increased performance
3. Relatively light weight body
4. Derived from a cheap, mass produced, compact or mid-sized vehicle
5. Atrocious brakes, handling and steering
6. Preferably two doors and good looks
7. A back seat (just to rule out any cheap sports cars)

So by your rules this is NOT a bonafide muscle car?



Despite the fact that it's clearly based on a full sized and relatively expensive Chevy Impala, me and many others would strongly argue that it is definiteley a true blue fair dinkum fully qualified Muscle Car! Hell the Beachboys even wrote a number one hit song about it!

What you are looking at is a 100% genuine factory built dual quad, four speed, pos-a-traction 409 Chevy and it had the folks drooling even moreso than the Hemi Road Runner. The fact it only has 17,000 miles on the odo possibly helped in that dept.

Regarding the rear seat, the Rambler AMX, was the Muscle version of the Javelin Pony car, it has no rear seat! Likewise the Chevy Black Widows (among the original '50s Muscle Cars) had no back seats.


Hey Deev, Aussie Muscle cars qualify on a different set of rules since the manufacturers here didn't always have the option of stuffing a big V8 motor into a nice two door coupe body. On the other hand, some of the things that pass here as muscle cars are not. To my mind the XY GTHO is and all the other XY GT's are not. The XR and XT GT's are because they used a hotter version of the Windsor small block than was offered in the base US Pony cars of the period. The E38 Chargers are also in, but not the others. Same with Toranas, GTR XU1 is in GTR is out. A9X is in SLR 5000 is out.

Paul wrote:Wow!! Looks like Muscle cars won't be happening! awww what a shame as i'm sure you guys good go on like this for EVA!!!

I reckon I could generate a passionate debate about Pommy cars.

Paul wrote:
Voting ends this weekend ,so place ya vote already!!!

Please, Please, Please....... don't make me build 'English!"