Muscle Cars!

Carps wrote: So by your rules this is NOT a bonafide muscle car?

Nope - everyone knows 'true' muscle cars started in 1964 when John Delorean put a big block in a compact tempest and called it a GTO. A full size Impala with a 409 might have been the business in 1961 and it does look like a damn nice car - but it ain't no muscle car.

Carps wrote: Regarding the rear seat, the Rambler AMX, was the Muscle version of the Javelin Pony car, it has no rear seat! Likewise the Chevy Black Widows (among the original '50s Muscle Cars) had no back seats.

No rear seat = sports car or racing car. Not a muscle car. AMC described the AMX as a "genuine sports car" themselves. Also with a base price of $5,994 in 1969, it was priced well outside the muscle car market. For comparison purposes, you could have a had a HEMI roadrunner in 1969 for just $4,000. I know what I would have picked!

Don't know much about black widows, except that they live under dunny seats and you don't mess with 'em. But I know a full size '57 Chevy ain't no muscle car.

In light of this thought provoking discussion, I will have to revise the parameters of a 'true' muscle car once again:

1. American car
2. Big block, big cubic inch V8 engine (above 5 litres)
2. Factory engine modifications for increased performance
3. Relatively light weight body
4. Derived from a cheap, mass produced, compact or mid-sized vehicle
5. Built between 1964 - 1973 ????
5. Atrocious brakes, handling and steering
6. Preferably two doors and good looks
7. A back seat (just to rule out any cheap sports cars)

Carps wrote:

Bryce wrote:I'm curious Carps - why is the 70 model your favourite?

It's a much cleaner design with a more aggressive attitude.

I reckon the 68/69 look heaps better.
I particularly like the yellow one pictured above and have a half-started model of it going. Just having a lot of trouble finding the right colour: NB - it has a HEMI!

So does this one! AND it has an Air Grabber!

It also has cleaner rear styling and those sexy quarter panel scoops.

Did I mention this is an all matching numbers 100% original car?

Complete and perfect, right down to the rare as rocking horse poop 'Beep Beep' Horn.

AND, to make it even more desireable it's got three pedals and a pistol grip knob.

And the ultra desireable 'Tick Tock Tach!'

This is but one of the many '70 Road Runners and GTXs I've photographed over the years and even though it doesn't have the bucket seat option, it's the one I'd have in a heartbeat if I had a lazy million or so laying around doing nothing.

My next favourite is the 71 model, whilst it'ds a completely new car, the styling remained very aggressive and clearly evolved from the '70 models.

That's a nice car Carps. The rear scoops are cool and those air grabbers are great - check this out - I love these old ads:

Carps wrote: Re the colour for your '68, I think I may have it at home, I'll let you know on Saturday if I do.

Awesome - would be great if you do. I have tried mixing it up before, but very difficult to get it pale enough. Just end up with lemon yellow all the time...

Reckon you might like this one Carps - 71 Hemi Roadrunner - Tor Red





I particularly like the trim on this one - so 70s, so







Screw British cars - lets have our own rebel GAS and build some HEMI Roadrunners!

Carps wrote: Hey Deev, Aussie Muscle cars qualify on a different set of rules since the manufacturers here didn't always have the option of stuffing a big V8 motor into a nice two door coupe body. On the other hand, some of the things that pass here as muscle cars are not. To my mind the XY GTHO is and all the other XY GT's are not. The XR and XT GT's are because they used a hotter version of the Windsor small block than was offered in the base US Pony cars of the period. The E38 Chargers are also in, but not the others. Same with Toranas, GTR XU1 is in GTR is out. A9X is in SLR 5000 is out.

They're all pony cars in my opinion - small engines, compact car and built for road racing.

Bryce wrote:

Carps wrote: So by your rules this is NOT a bonafide muscle car?

Nope - everyone knows 'true' muscle cars started in 1964 when John Delorean put a big block in a compact tempest and called it a GTO. A full size Impala with a 409 might have been the business in 1961 and it does look like a damn nice car - but it ain't no muscle car.

Damn! and all my history books tell me it started when Oldsmobile stuffed a big new V8 with lotdsa carbs in their little 88 couupe in 1949. I guess all those folks must be wrong.

Oh and in it's day that big red Chevy and many like it, dominated the quarter mile drag strips of America spawning more legends than the Pontiac GTO ever did on the dragstrip. Look thru your old Hot Rod magazines and you'll see the likes of Grumpy Jenkins and others in these full size cars and on a regular bvasis with the occaisional Goat.

Bryce wrote:Reckon you might like this one Carps - 71 Hemi Roadrunner - Tor Red

[url=https://servimg.com/view/12592878/175][img]

be better if they didn't order it with the plastic bumpers.

Here's one to add to your list of rules: Must have chrome bumper bars!

Heres the revised 'true' muscle car mandatories list:

1. American car
2. Big block, big cubic inch V8 engine (above 5 litres)
3. Factory engine modifications for increased performance
4. Relatively light weight body
5. Derived from a cheap, mass produced, compact or mid-sized vehicle
6. Built between 1964 - 1973 ????
7. Atrocious brakes, handling and steering
8. Preferably two doors and good looks
9. A back seat (just to rule out any cheap sports cars)
10. Chrome bumper bars

Reckon we've nailed it down now Caps...

Muscle Cars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_car

I learned a long time ago NOT to believe everything I read on the dubyuh, dubyuh, dubyuh!

So, some in depth analysis is due.

Wickepedia wrote:Muscle car is a term used to refer to a variety of high performance automobiles.[1][2] The term principally refers to American, Australian and to a lesser extent South African models.

South African? All those cars were either built in Australia or America!

Wickepedia wrote:It generally describes a 2-door rear wheel drive mid-size car with a large, powerful V8 engine, and at an affordable price.

Which describes to a tee, the 1949 Oldsmobile Rocket 88!

Wickepedia wrote: Although opinions vary,

Seems like stating the bleeding obvious.

Wickepedia wrote:They are distinct from sports cars and also from GTs, which are two-seat or 2+2 cars intended for high-speed touring/road racing. These are not generally considered muscle cars owing to their small size, relatively high cost and specialty nature.

Well I guess that counts a whole bunch of them out, including all the Falcons, Mustangs and others that were branded GT by their makers. Not to mention the Valiant Chargers which were, like Rambler's AMX, built on a shorter wheelbase than the regular Valiant models (thus not based on an existing budget priced or indeed any other vehicle type) including the coupes, and they definitely had only 2+2 seating.

Unless the Wicky could be wrong?

Wickepedia wrote:it is generally accepted that classic muscle cars were produced in the late 1960s and early 1970s.

Hmmmmm, I wonder what this means, that there are two or more types of Muscle cars based on different criteria? 'Basic', 'full sized' and 'classic' perhaps, who knows? Is it that those built earlier and the later ones were somehow different in concept or execution? With the later ones somehow being more special?

This being true, may also then be the second 'strike' against the car that was suggested to be the first 'true' muscle car. It was built in the early sixties not the late sixties and it was badged GTO! From Bryce's list of qualifications it's strike three and yoooooou're OUT! because contemporaty journals such as the widely acclaimed Road and Track magazine, reported that the 'Goat' steered, stopped and handled far better than most cars of the time.

Wickepedia wrote:Muscle cars were built for street use and in some cases racing.

I'd be pretty confident to say that each and every single one of them was raced at some time or other, just not on an 'official' or 'sanctioned' race track.

Wickepedia wrote:(The two-seater AMC AMX may or may not be an exception: one source queries whether it qualifies as a true muscle car or pony car, but also lists it among vehicles that fit the general interpretation of both categories.

So it appears not even the 'experts' know for sure what is and what isn't a muscle car!

Wickepedia wrote:AMC was "never shy" about describing the car as "a genuine sports car"[9] as it was relatively inexpensive).

Isn't that just like calling a Mustang or Falcon a GT? Or a Camaro 'Super Sports'?

Wickepedia wrote:For a definition from the muscle car era, a 2004 book refers the reader to an extract from Road Test magazine’s June 1967 issue: "Just what is a Muscle Car? Exactly what the name implies. It is a product of the American car industry adhering to the hot rodder's philosophy of taking a small car and putting a BIG engine in it. The Muscle Car is Charles Atlas kicking sand in the face of the 98 hp (73 kW) weakling." The book’s author adds that the muscle car was designed for straight-line speed, and did not have the "sophisticated chassis", "engineering integrity" or "lithe appearance" of European high-performance cars

Once again this describes very accurately exactly what Oldsmobile did in 1959 when they hopped up their brand new OHV V8 and stufffed it into their small low priced coupe and called it 'Rocket 88!

Come to think of it, this also decribes my Hilux yoot, which has more than enough muscle to whip many of the so called Muscle Cars' asses too!

Wickepedia wrote:Opinions vary as to whether high-performance full-size cars, compacts, and pony cars qualify as muscle cars.

It's well recorded in hot rodding/drag racing history that a helluva lot of those full sized 'muscle cars' regularly whupped the arses offa the smaller, lighter ones on the drag strip, to take home the spoils of victory!

Wickepedia wrote:Classic muscle cars are also defined by age and country of origin. The term "muscle car" did not enter common usage until after production of the vehicles had essentially ended, and American print media of the era commonly referred to them as "supercars".

So the reality is, there's no such thing as muscle cars, since the name was not given them by the folks who manufactured and marketed them, but by outsiders who most likely do not know shyte from shinola! The all knowing Wickepedia seems to be saying they were just ordinary cars with big engines and a few fancy 'options'.


So I guess what all this really means, is it's OK to build English!

For all you Muscle Car modellers and 1:1 Muscle Car nuts in Sydney and NSW , the Muscle Car Masters is on at Eastern Creek Motor Racing Circuit on the 6th and 7th of September. Take your camera!